One, You asked: Does the Genesis account reveal that the preparation and the flood itself was global? I do not believe it does. I have one long post on page 1 of this thread that explains my beliefs on this. You asked: D oes the Christian message about the flood, as presented in the "scriptures" reveal an understanding of a global flood by the writers? In my earlier post I said: The world of the Bible writers was a much smaller world than our world today. Their part of the earth was then for them "the whole world." In other words it would not have been possible for the Bible's writers to have "an understanding of a global flood" if they did not understand the concept of "global."
a Christian
JoinedPosts by a Christian
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290
The Global Flood
by coldfish ini've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.
my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.
he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.
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290
The Global Flood
by coldfish ini've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.
my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.
he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.
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a Christian
Since I have been about the only one in this thread defending the flood account and other parts of Genesis as not necessarily being in conflict with science, I assume I am the one who is said to be "defending God by means of lies and dishonest arguments." I certainly admit it is possible to do just that. But I do not believe I have done so.
It certainly does not surprise me that some on this board are now plainly calling me a liar or implying I am such. Sadly, such attacks on Christians are all too common here.
One,
You wrote: You are "convinced" that the Bible is inspired by God, but you are not willing to share exactly how you arrived to such conclusions.. Proving that the bible is inspired may be the appropriate starting point.
I have done so at some length in times past on this forum. Due to my past experience, I do not now have the inclination to do so here again. I also do not have the time right now to respond to all the criticisms which, again judging from past experience, would almost certainly come my way from this forum. If you or someone else here wishes, you may e-mail me privately. If your e-mail leads me to believe you are a sincere seeker of truth, and not just a Bible/Christian basher, I will discuss the matter with you privately.
Mike ([email protected])
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290
The Global Flood
by coldfish ini've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.
my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.
he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.
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a Christian
Nark,
You wrote: You started by offering an alternate explanation for the Eden narrative, I commented that it doesn't suit the Genesis text.
I disagreed with you. I believe my explanation is the only explanation that fully fits the text. However, I didn't see the point in going into it all with you, since you were also in the same post arguing a point of simple logic I had made. I said that God is not "free" to disagree with Himself and we are "free" to so so. You seemed to want to debate that point. I figured if you couldn't agree with me on that it was doubful you would agree with me on anything else. So I moved on. I hope to find time to discuss the Genesis text with you another time.
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290
The Global Flood
by coldfish ini've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.
my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.
he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.
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a Christian
Abaddon,
I see no point in continuing this discussion with you. First of all, you use profanity towards the God of the Bible, "if he exists." You then say, "Even if you explain away an un-scientific god in Genesis, you then have to explain away the blood-thirsty tribal god in the other four books of the Pantateuch (sp?)."
From that I can gather that it will most likely make no difference to you how well anyone here manages to show that Genesis does not contradict science, or how well anyone here manages to answer your concerns about the other books of the Pentateuch, you will always have another reason for believing the Bible cannot possibly be inspired by God. Your biggest reason may be that you do not believe a "God" even exists. Your reasons for not believing in God may actually have nothing to do with the Bible.
I may be wrong about this. I hope I am. But I don't have the time right now to find out.
I am convinced beyond all doubt that the same God who created the universe inspired the writing of the Bible. But what has convinced me most likely will not convince you. And that is no knock on you. This thread was entitled, "The Global Flood". It was not entitled, "Prove God exists." If it had been I probably would not have posted in it. For I believe God gives every child He adopts all the proof they need to put their faith in Him. But since this thread is now turning into a "Prove God Exists" thread and a "The Bible Is Rubbish" thread, it looks like my daughter is forcing me off the computer at just about the right time.
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290
The Global Flood
by coldfish ini've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.
my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.
he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.
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a Christian
Toreador, I wrote: If all of those in Noah's day were not really able to come to know the true God by the preaching of one man, and I doubt they were, then I trust God will take that into account when He renders their final judgment. You responded:Your loving God just killed some very innocent people in a terrible undeserving way. He drowned the poor buggers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From today's headlines: Tidal Waves Kill 22,000 in Nine Countries
COLOMBO, Sri Lanka (AP) - Rescuers piled up bodies along southern Asian coastlines devastated by tidal waves that obliterated seaside towns and killed more than 22,000 people in nine countries, and officials indicated Monday the death toll could climb far higher.
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Such natural disasters are often called "acts of God." Whether God deliberately causes such disasters or only allows them to occur makes little difference to many people. For the Bible makes clear God could have stopped them but He didn't. Jesus calmed storms.
Every day of life is a gift from God. He gives some of us only one such gift. To others He gives very many. But none of us are "innocent people" and none of us are "undeserving" of death. The Bible tells us that we were all born as sinners. (Psalm 51:5) As such, from the time of our births, we are all deserving of death. (Rom. 6:23)
Fortunately, the Bible indicates that God will give everyone who has ever lived and died a fair hearing, at which time He will take into consideration how much knowledge of Him we have received during our lifetimes. If the people who drowned at the time of Noah did so before gaining a thorough knowledge of God I believe God will take that into consideration at the time of their final judgement, the only judgement which really counts. For God does not permanently "take the lives" of people who die as a result of "acts of God." We know this because Jesus assured us that, "A time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out?those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned."
Jesus also said concerning those who are then judged by God, "The one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows." (Luke 12:48) And He told us that even some of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah will receive a merciful final judgment, due to their not having as good an opportunity to come to know God as others have had. (Matt. 10:15; 11:23) That being the case, I'm sure this will also apply to people who have died in other judgments of God in times past, like the flood of Noah's day, if they had not received as thorough a knowledge of God as others have.
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290
The Global Flood
by coldfish ini've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.
my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.
he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.
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a Christian
Nark,
Obviously Christ wanted His disciples to teach God's word to others. (Matt. 28:19,20) However, that does not mean that everything in it would be able to be understood by all. So far as Biblical "apologetics [being] an outright betrayal of Jesus Christ," I doubt that is the case. For the apostles themselves were Biblical apologists, as they often explained how some hard to understand Old Testament passages were meant to be understood.
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290
The Global Flood
by coldfish ini've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.
my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.
he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.
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a Christian
Melmac,
You wrote: I, for one, wish I could reconcile bible with science... but I can't. If I could, I'd gladly take the chance to do so. I asked you: What parts of the Bible do you think cannot be reconciled with science? You responded: Well... about my doubts about the bible... I may start with those at http://www.bidstrup.com/bible2.htm Which is a long list of alleged "Bible contradictions," none of which has anything to do with its alleged problems with science. But that's OK. I wont have much time on the computer for the next week or so anyway. My college age daughter is home for Christmas break.
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290
The Global Flood
by coldfish ini've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.
my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.
he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.
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a Christian
Abaddon,
I never said that your post specifically criticized me or what I wrote. Neither did I specifically criticize you or what you wrote. I only pointed out what your most recent post again makes obvious. That anyone who makes an effort to defend the Bible on this forum can expect to be given a very hard time.
You again made that point by writing: You essentially make-up bits that are not in the Bible, ... that you have no proof for, to make-up for the non-scientific nature of the text. ... You do this to allow you to retain belief in the Bible ... You seem to be unaware that if you have to make-up bits to make the text make scientific sense in the Creation account, and the Flood account, the Babel account etc. ... you are just showing you have an inventive imagination and an agenda of Biblical apologism.
So, any Christian who attempts to defend the Scriptures here as not contradicting science will be derided for "mak[ing]-up bits that are not in the Bible", "that [we] have no proof for", because we have, "an inventive imagination and an agenda of Biblical apologism." On the other hand, if all Christians here fail to offer any defense for the Bible's perceived contradictions with scientific realities, they will be maligned as being unable and unwilling to make any defense for their faith. We are, as they say, "damned if we do and damned if we don't."
I wrote: It could be that God always provides just enough evidence to convince those who are willing to believe and never enough to convince those who prefer not to believe.
You responded: See? YOU MAKE STUFF UP. .... If god is love and is desirous that all attain salvation, why would he hide the truth in his book?
If my understanding that God has chosen to "hide the truth in his book" is "made up" it was not made up by me. It was made up by Jesus Christ. For He said of His disciples: "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand." (Luke 8:10)
This may not seem right to you. But maybe God knows better than you. Yes, God wants all to come to repentance and be saved. But He may also know that not all will do so. If that is the case, why is it wrong for Him to have had the Bible written in a way so that some parts of it would be understood only by those who do come to repentance and find salvation?
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290
The Global Flood
by coldfish ini've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.
my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.
he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.
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a Christian
Melmac,
You wrote: I, for one, wish I could reconcile bible with science... but I can't. If I could, I'd gladly take the chance to do so.
I am sure there are many things which you have as yet in your life been unable to do. That does not mean they cannot be done. I'm curious. What parts of the Bible do you think cannot be reconciled with science?
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290
The Global Flood
by coldfish ini've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.
my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.
he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.
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a Christian
Norm, You wrote: Nothing Bible apologists say seems to have much serious critical thinking behind it, it usually boils down to the same circular
arguments. Like, "the Bible is the Word of God! How do you know? The Bible says so." My belief that the Creator of our universe inspired the writing of the Bible is certainly not based on such a foolish argument. All believers I know have a faith that is built on what they consider to be strong evidence. For some, like myself, that evidence came to them as a result of long personal studies of both science and the Scriptures which convinced them that the Bible is inspired by God. Others have become convinced of that fact as a result of personal "miraculous experiences." Others' faith has been validated as a result of what they see as answered prayers or as God working in their lives. In any case, the faith of most Christians has resulted from what they see as strong evidence, not from circular arguments. Now, most likely if they were to discuss that "evidence" with you, you would not find it as convincing as they have. But I believe God gave each of them all the help they needed to firmly establish their faith in Him. He gave me what I needed. And I needed a lot. I hope someday He will give you all the evidence you need to put your faith in Him. But I don't believe the evidence God gives to most of us is "recyclable." For every child whom God adopts He adopts personally. That being the case, I doubt you will ever find all the evidence you need to put your faith in the God of the Bible on an Internet discussion board. However, maybe some here will plant some seeds in your heart and mind which God will later cause to grow. You wrote:In order to stay a "believer" one has to abandon real critical thinking, as it is simply lethal to faith. The only "critical thinking" I have abandoned is the kind which is all too commonly displayed on this board. That is the kind of "critical thinking" which criticizes virtually every thought expressed by someone who expresses a belief in the God of the Bible.